tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-861956614085497346.post5703543218802530799..comments2024-03-24T22:30:40.095-07:00Comments on Total Party Kill: Total Buzz Kill? - Part TwoUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-861956614085497346.post-8106402825673072682010-03-29T12:02:01.690-07:002010-03-29T12:02:01.690-07:00No probs. It was written rather quickly to make a ...No probs. It was written rather quickly to make a point. I am happy to expand on it or answer questions.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-861956614085497346.post-72580864653596911862010-03-29T00:40:33.981-07:002010-03-29T00:40:33.981-07:00Hey thanks man, that's an awesome example.
I&#...Hey thanks man, that's an awesome example.<br />I'll post it on the group forum and let you know how it goes down..https://www.blogger.com/profile/06718336488311841278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-861956614085497346.post-66074009111952893112010-03-28T16:06:07.499-07:002010-03-28T16:06:07.499-07:00To tease out that example a bit more:
DM: "S...To tease out that example a bit more:<br /><br />DM: "So you are splitting the party and sending two PCs with the hobgoblins."<br /><br />Players: "Yes!"<br /><br />DM: "I should pretty much kill then both right now for such a stupid idea."<br /><br />Players of 2 PCs: "Man what! Why?"<br /><br />DM: "Cause the hobgoblins are a treacherous race, and you have handed yourselves to them."<br /><br />Players: "..."<br /><br />DM: "OK. Here's how we roll. This is going to be a Skill Challenge. The two PCs try to escape their fate. In any case, the hobgoblins are going to bring the bugbears down on you. The question is whether it will be 4 or 6 of you. If you fail, the two PCs will be captured and the rest of the party will be forced to battle the bugbears by themselves. Those 2 PCs' fate will hang in the balance as they will be held hostage in case the attack fails."<br /><br />Players: "OK. But if we succeed?"<br /><br />DM: " If you succeed, the 2 PCs notice the hobgoblins betrayal before they get it off and escape back to the PCs in time to warn them."<br /><br />Players: "Cool."<br /><br />DM: "To add some more detail, for every failure that the 2 PCs get, they loose 1d4 healing surges to reflect damage they take in the escape."<br /><br />Players: "Ouch!"<br /><br />DM: "I will let the skills that can be used roll from the narration. This is fairly significant, so let's say 10 successes before 3 failures."<br /><br />DM: "So the 2 PCs head off into the forest with the hobgoblins. They are soon out of sight of the others. The 2 PCs can't help but notice the hobgoblins chattering to each other in Goblin. Neither of you speak goblin, do you?."<br /><br />This could have lead to the same result that you had i.e. a TPK. However, by establishing a process that everyone can contribute to, it softens the impact by removing the feeling that it is either unexpected or as a result from 1 person's expectations.<br /><br />I also note that the other 4 players could add to the Skill Challenge, with flashbacks and cut scenes that may suit the narrative, such as one PC describing how he had been teaching one of the 2 PCs goblin hand signals. As the Skill Challenge is a balanced process within itself, i.e. the risk built in to the roll, the GM can be relaxed about this kind of narrative freedom as the mechanical impact is balanced.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-861956614085497346.post-84209089594044422792010-03-26T12:56:46.938-07:002010-03-26T12:56:46.938-07:00Cool. I can't really make much of the statisti...Cool. I can't really make much of the statistical data. A 4th level encounter is tough but doable for a 2nd level group, though the removal of strikers will have an impact (though less so if minions are used).<br /><br />My comment about the skill challenge system probably needs further explanation. Though the mechanics are not new, I find that they help focus the DM on providing for a dynamic challenge with failure that is fun. As such, their use allows for GMs to propose some hefty problems but in a way that tends to be more healthy than imposing it by fiat or one or two rolls.<br /><br />This may start getting a bit indie, but if the GM was convinced that the players actions deserved death, then this can be communicated through the setting up of the skill challenge. This gives prior warning to the players and allows them to focus appropriately on how they propose to avoid it. That way the sudden consequences don't seem like a surprise and if a TPK did happen it seems more like a result of a group agreed process than something inexplicable and out of the blue.<br /><br />I guess what I am saying is that SC can be useful in establishing greater group communication and trust, especially on important stoty points and junctions of this type. Like the PTA system, I have found that it has made me as a GM more willing to create bigger issues and consequences for my players in a healthy way as a result.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-861956614085497346.post-62064873292134721122010-03-25T20:29:58.479-07:002010-03-25T20:29:58.479-07:00Nice find on the quote! Talk about reinforcing th...Nice find on the quote! Talk about reinforcing the weenie DM archetype!<br /><br />As for the detail of this TPK, it really wasn't 4th ed specific, the same GM has done the same thing in every previous edition of the game.<br /><br />FWIW we were second level characters with a Human Rogue, Elf Ranger, Goliath barbarian, Dwarf Paladin, Dragonborn Wizard and Human Cleric (pretty much a UN type of party).<br /><br />I wasn't privy to how the scouts were killed as this was done 1-1 with the DM. The Hobgoblins we fought had 2 major heros wit magic and the ability to instantly deploy minions, half a dozen non-minion supporters and about a dozen minions in 3 waves. I think the DM said it was balanced against a fourth level party of 4, we were a second level party of 4 without our scouts.<br /><br />I reterospect I don't thinka perception check would have been out of line to sense tension, given it seems unlikely that hobgoblins are consumate actors.<br /><br />That said the DM has sent out a bunch of info the day before the game providing some details on the races, apparently this said that hobgoblins are renown for respecting strength and otherwise thoroughly distrustful. So perhaps he was trying to provide a clue out of game because of dissatisfaction with the skill challenge system?.https://www.blogger.com/profile/06718336488311841278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-861956614085497346.post-12893704957164574732010-03-24T14:46:50.237-07:002010-03-24T14:46:50.237-07:00Then again with advice like this in the DMG for 1e...Then again with advice like this in the DMG for 1e, its not surprising we have these issues:<br /><br /><b>p. 110 "HANDLING TROUBLESOME PLAYERS":</b><br /><br />Strong steps short of expulsion can be an extra random monster die, obviously rolled, the attack of an ethereal mummy (which always strikes by surprise, naturally), points of damage from "blue bolts from the heavens" striking the offender's head, or the permanent loss of a point of charisma (appropriately) from the character belonging to the offender."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-861956614085497346.post-6105242550903652012010-03-24T13:52:01.050-07:002010-03-24T13:52:01.050-07:00Ouch. That sounds... bad. FWIW I don't think t...Ouch. That sounds... bad. FWIW I don't think that the decisions made by the player were all that "un-tactical". Seeking allies against a superior force is a sensible course. It sounds more like the GM had decided to punish the players heavily for wandering off course of what he or she thought should be an "obvious" path.<br /><br />In any case, once the decision was made to try and ally with the goblins and kobolds, the GM still had plenty of opportunity to enact the advice in the DMG, rather than committing to a path of TPK. For example, did the scouts notice the goblins duplicity? This seems like a perfect place for a skill challenge to me. It would essentiialy "punish" the PCs for making the wrong decision by creating a greater chance of risk. However, implicit in the skill challenge design is making failure fun and allow the story to progress. <br /><br />Also, there is a lot of flexibility for that last fight with the Bugbears. I would be interested to get some of the stats, as in 4e its very easy to eyeball whether it is stacked for a TPK or not. If it was, I have to ask what was the point of playing out an entire combat? Just say the PCs die and be done with it.<br /><br /><i>"The players weren’t exactly on the same page either. My filthy hobo paladin of the god of the homeless wasn’t winning me any friends with the party, who thought I was failing to act as a suitable negotiator and utilise my high charisma score. Our priest wasn’t big on voluntarily healing people, and the others had some issues as well. It’s fair to say that players who had an eye on ‘party roles’ as set out in the book were increasingly displeased with our failure to fulfill our anticipated roles to maximize our potential."</i><br /><br />To be honest, that sounds like every game of D&D I have played where a player doesn't play their PC to the group's maximum benefit :)<br /><br />Finally FWIW roles only apply to combat. As such, roles don't apply to a PC's place in the group in a wider sense. That remains over to the players to decide through roleplaying.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com